Welcome! Our last guest, Petr, left this question for you: What inspired you recently, whether it be a book, film, or something from work? What was this energy booster? We ask each guest to leave a question for the next, thus creating a chain.

Thank you so much for having me on this is a fantastic podcast that I've been actually tuning into as of recently. This is a great question. I'm going to veer off a little bit to a slogan that I find super inspiring. There is a popular Kurdish slogan: ژن، ژیان، ئازادی (Jin, Jiyan, Azadî), which means Woman, Life, Freedom. It gained a ton of global recognition after the death Jina Mahsa Amini. There were masses of women-led protests that then followed in Ira. But without getting into too many details regarding that movement and veering completely off track, this slogan has always really been a source of inspiration to me as a Kurdish woman because it represents a tapestry of experiences of Kurdish women over generations who have been met with political activism and upheaval under Saddam Hussein, who have joined the armed resistance against ISIS in northern Syria, and who continue to be met with a lot of these different severe societal marginalities and injustices in host countries whose political systems have been historically designed to suppress Kurdish lives. Unfortunately, we see much of this in different pockets of the world, from women in Mexico to the Uyghurs in China to Black lives in the United States. For me, the slogan is a reminder of where I come from. The strength, resilience, and bravery of my Kurdish ancestors inspires me to make a real impact in the work that I do, the actions that I take, and the words that I speak. It is my duty to create space for people and communities who are being left behind for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the value they add to our human history, culture, and values. That, to me, is what my mission is for the work that I'm doing at the Blockchain Law for Social Good Center. I'm so excited that I have a team that also shares in that vision.

I totally did not expect that answer. I have goosebumps. It's beautiful. Speaking of Iran, I was talking recently to somebody who recommended a Google Chrome extension called Snowflake. Maybe you know it?

Yeah! 

For other listeners, she explained that because of all of the censorship in Iran, you can add this Snowflake extension and bridge your excess internet to people where internet access is restricted or censored, as the internet is an important vehicle for getting people's messages across. Tell me about what it is you do at the Blockchain Law for Social Good Center.

I recently joined as the new Blockchain Law for Social Good Center director, an academic nonprofit. We're funded by the Filecoin Foundation for the Decentralized Web. This center is the first of its kind in the United States. That's what makes it super unique. Our mission is to create training grounds that equip law students, lawyers, entrepreneurs, as well as policymakers and government officials at the federal, state, and local levels, on the socially beneficial use cases of blockchain law and technology. A lot of sensationalism, misinformation, and disinformation abound about what is and is not possible when it comes to emerging technologies. So our role at the center is to provide that critical education that is inclusive, balanced, and unbiased so that we can provide the building blocks to create a productive future for the next generation.

One thing that is missing is a systematic approach to learning. Then the regulatory issues are on top of that. You were at Consensus, right? You might be able to share some takeaways from that event regarding those aspects.

It was my second Consensus. It absolutely did not disappoint. Michael Casey, the Chief Content Officer at Coindesk, and his team at Coindesk did a sensational job. You just go, and you walk around the convention center. You're just like, wow, it's like a mammoth of an event, and he pulled it off. 

I was particularly excited to speak on a panel at Consensus entitled Grassroots Crypto and Social Impact, which, of course, is very similar to some of the work we do at the center. It was moderated by my dear friend, Tricia Wang, who is the co-founder and executive director of the Crypto Research and Design Lab. If you haven't heard of it, I would definitely recommend looking into the work that they're doing. But for this panel, we discussed the different socially beneficial use cases for blockchain. We had an opportunity to hear from founders and leaders from companies like eToro,  Planet Watch, Massa, a new project that I find interesting called Future Green, and several more.

In terms of my main takeaways from the event itself, the dichotomy between the industry's existential questions because of the lack of regulatory clarity that we see for digital assets in the United States and the level of optimism people still share about the technology I found quite striking. There was a lot of optimism on some of the panels and the different booths where people were doing presentations on their respective projects. Another thing that I found interesting and not too shocking was the topic of regulation. That was something that was very much discussed across a lot of different panels at Consensus. What I found the most interesting was learning about how non-US regulators are thinking about crypto. At the same time, the US remains at somewhat of a standstill both in Congress and among regulators. It will be interesting to see how the regulatory scheme in the US evolves and whether progress here will have any impact or clout on already quite advanced regulatory architectures being built elsewhere worldwide. That was very much evident at this event. It will be cool to see how that evolves over the next few months.

Many people in this industry for even a short period see the social impact, not necessarily just the crypto side of things, but some of the other use cases. We're all super, maybe even blindly optimistic about it. We don't want all of the work that we've been doing to go to waste! There needs to be some kind of regulatory decision sooner rather than later. We'll see where, when, and how that shows up! How did you start in blockchain? What got you into the whole Web3 space?

I actually started in blockchain at the World Economic Forum. I was at the WEF, or as we say, the Forum, and I started in Data Policy. I built out their digital justice work. We did a lot of work around restorative justice. Then I moved into this new project called the Crypto Impact and Sustainability Accelerator, and I got to work with the Crypto Innovation Council, where Sheila Warren is the CEO. She was working at the World Economic Forum, where she founded blockchain, and she was the deputy director of the WEF and she said to me: I'm doing this crypto project, and it's gonna be really cool. It would be great to have you come on board and work with me on it. Of course, I said yes. 

That just kind of started this whole journey towards learning about blockchain, building out all of the things that people found the most interesting and of priority in the space. Through that process, I met some sensational people I still work with at the Center. What I picked up on in terms of my interests in blockchain as a concept and as a technology is its ability to challenge antiquated systems thinking around how we solve real-world problems, and that was the anchor of how we navigated this project and why we were able to share a lot of the scholarship that we did — whether it be across the regenerative finance sector, DAOs, ethnographic research around socially beneficial use cases. We touched upon many different nodes of interest from our stakeholder partners. That then led to my work at the Center, where we're taking a lot of that scholarship and research that we did and pushing that into service. So what does application look like? Where do people go if they need to see what use cases work? What does responsibility look like? What does good look like? It’s great to bring that background to the work we're doing at the Center. It’s interesting to see how that is now getting hooked into the students that we have, the regulators that we're speaking to, and a lot of the community colleges, where educators are now paying interest in what's possible with this technology for their students.

Amazing. Have you always been in finance or in tech, or where did you start?

No, my background is in foreign policy. I did a lot of work. I got my master's degree in public diplomacy. I was in the pipeline to be a foreign service officer. At that time also working at Homeland Security Investigations. That was very much my world for about three or four years. Then we had an administration change in the US from the Obama to the Trump administration. I saw the whole culture and systemic change in the work that I was doing. I felt that at that time, I didn't get to do the work that I had set out wanting to do, which was working with different people and communities across the world that are often oppressed by elements of marginality and systemic injustices. Unfortunately, it didn't go in that direction. So I was trying to find a way to refocus my mission and energy. I came across data policy at the World Economic Forum. I was very familiar with the organization, but not with data policy. Still, I thought it was a really great challenge and opportunity to learn and hopefully bridge that nexus with my mission. I'm glad I made that jump because I wouldn't be here talking to you. I wouldn't be working with the Center, and I wouldn't be able to have met a lot of these people and communities that I've always been wanting to learn from and collaborate with.

Many of us in this field have a similar line of thinking. The decentralized thinking — not having one governing body in many areas, not just politically speaking. In what ways do you think these organizations that you've spoken of, or any organization really, can propel true diversity?

I'm sorry. Can you help reframe that question? You're asking what organizations I've encountered pushing for diversity. Was that the question? 

For example, in what ways are the World Economic Forum or Blockchain Law for Social Good Center ensuring that there is diversity? Or you can take it a bit more broadly and give some ideas of how any tech company can ensure diversity across their organization.

So stepping back a little bit. The whole point of Web3 is this decentralized system that enables the diversity of the community but also of thought, leadership, and of creativity in order to enable this prosperous future where everyone gets a slice of the pie. If Web3 wants to continue to take the steps towards realizing this mission and staying true to the foundations upon which it was designed, then creators, founders, and leaders in the space need to do better in terms of spotlighting people and projects that are actually driving impact with diversity. Not a diversity day on the calendar but as the main part of the equation. To your earlier question, what are the organizations that are driving that sort of philosophy? The Blockchain Law for Social Good Center is really driving that philosophy forward. When we're having our strategy sessions and building our education program, we're constantly thinking of ways of working with community colleges in underserved areas that no one knows about, for example. How can we actually have an impact there? How many students feel as though people see them? These are the questions that we're constantly asking ourselves as a team because we're thinking, Okay, at the end of the day, we're a brand, and we want to build that brand and have people know us and the work we're doing. But a bigger priority for us is having diversity be a part of our everyday strategy, to bring in people, groups, and new voices that feel as though they don't have a seat at the table. Everyone's talking about how they want to impact their lives but aren't giving them the opportunity to be part of the conversation. That's a big deal when it comes to having these big pronouncements around diversity and, unfortunately, something that we see a lot in tech in the tech space. A Twitter campaign or a day in the calendar where you're saying, Look at all this diversity we have. Still, there isn't enough work being done where you're actually looking at the research that the organization is doing, looking at the team that they're building, and looking at the people that they're actually collaborating with, that all attest to the diversity that they've been pushing forward since day one. That's something that at least my team is really conscious about doing because we don't want to be part of that diversity hype cycle that, unfortunately, gets propounded on these spaces.

Rather than ‘the checklist’ to have diversity as a cultural driver behind organizations. Help me visualize how the Blockchain Law for Social Good Center works. You offer courses. Can anybody sign up? Do they go through your website? Is it an online course? Is it in-person classes in a certain location? Help me visualize what the organization does.

Absolutely. So for one, the center doesn't offer courses or certification programs, at least not yet. There are two classes that Professor Michele Neitz, the founder and academic director of the blockchain law for social good Center. She teaches two courses on different aspects of blockchain. There's a huge waiting list of students from the University of San Francisco School of Law, where we're based. However, in terms of some of the other education that we do that is more external-facing, we do have government training that we host for different government offices locally across the state of California. There have been some federal offices as well that have gotten in contact with us. This channel of our work is gaining a lot of popularity. It's interesting to be part of those training and hear some of the questions regulators and policy enforcers ask. We're well-positioned to provide that for this stakeholder group that will greatly impact the regulatory architecture built in the next few years. Government training is something that we offer. We're also looking to build out our community college training, working with educators in underserved areas in the United States, looking primarily at California first. We're also working with Blockchain entrepreneurs as well. There are a lot of nodes in this program. In summary, we’re providing a lot of training to 500+ audiences and thinking of ways to build blockchain-informed networks and a ripple effect. We will hopefully get the attention of journalists at some point!

It’s almost like we are all on our own islands. The tech people, the regulators on a different one, and we don’t have a solid way of connecting all of these pieces. This is a very broad question, but do you have a vision of the regulatory architecture that might come into place?

When it comes to regulation, there are amazing organizations out there doing the work. Crypto Foundation for Innovation, for example. Ensure that the gap between policy enforcers and regulators and the industry itself isn’t ever-expanding. For regulation to be responsible and conducive to the innovation’s maturity, there needs to be clarification between these two stakeholder groups. We hear that a lot but education is base camp one. We’re doing that at the center. Also, listening, there are lots of announcements and people saying regulators should do this, and lawmakers should think of that, and SEC should be doing this. Still, there needs to be more sitting-at-the-table-and-listening to what the concerns and priorities are for the industry, people, and communities. What does good look like, and what does a blockchain-based future look like? I am sure these questions are already being addressed, but just to tie the knot, education is at the root. If we want it to be accessible and inclusive, the industry needs to work in a productive way.

Maybe in my naivety, I wonder how regulation can be decentralized. It opens up a can of worms.

There are so many colors of philosophy that are compelling when it comes to blockchain, decentralization, autonomy, financial freedom, and economic autonomy. All of those are great foundational pillars of the technology, and why people find this interesting, particularly those that come from legacy systems, is that they believe in those values that should really be rooted in our current political, economic, and social systems. You want to see open access and prosperity for all. You want decentralization in terms of how people can navigate their own economic independence, diversity in terms of thought and expression, and all of that. Unfortunately, given a lot of the geopolitical factors and elements of upheaval that have emerged over these last few months, it really takes you back to the reasons why you’re in Web3, how you can go back to those values, and how do I make sure that when I’m onboarding people to these applications and talking to my friends and family, or to policy enforcers about what is possible, always going back to those values that people care about, and putting people at the forefront of why this is important.

I think that’s a nice point to end it on. As you know I agree with your line of thinking and it has to be people-centered. Something that can benefit the maximum number of people at any one time.

Absolutely. Also, I’d like to add to the human centricity aspect that people pushed for, but not losing sight of our planetary ecosystem is equally as important. How we can push ecosystem centricity to include all living beings. This is another element of our work at the center, thinking about how we can educate on blockchain law in a way that also tackles some of the climate concerns that we have as a generation. We need to activate service in that direction that includes some of the elements we were talking about and some of the philosophies that we care about within the possibilities of blockchain.

I don’t know if it was a ChainChat or one of our Twitter Spaces now, but there was a company based in Canada tracking carbon credits on a small scale. We have offset-your-carbon incentives for flights or for big companies, but other than recycling and taking the bus, it’s hard for the everyday person to be aware of how they can practically fight climate change, and this company was incentivizing even these small changes. The name is eMissions Software Inc.

Do you have a question for our next guest?

Yes! What is your favorite Web3 use case? When your friends ask you what Web3 is actually good for, what do you tell them?

 Yes, how we sell it! What would your answer be?

I see a few, but there’s one project called ReSeed, that we worked with at the WEF. I created a huge project around crypto sustainability, and they worked with me to draft an issue briefing on the monetary carbon market. I highly recommend it. They're doing great work on carbon credits directly from farmers to the market. That’s how they’re essentially trying to fight climate change at scale by financing and incentivizing farmers to steward carbon through regenerative farming practices. They have really amazing statistics. It’s great to go to some of these testimonies from the people themselves to highlight that this is something that people care about, and it’s putting money in peoples’ pockets and doing so in a way where they’re not being forgotten in the carbon lifecycle, which is unfortunately the case in the legacy carbon market.

ReSeed, I will definitely check it out. Thank you so much for this conversation, it has been extremely interesting, and you’ve given me plenty to look up!

Thank you, this has been a great conversation to start the day!